Diversions
Apr. 1st, 2003 11:26 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
fabrisseI don't usually write about "fandom" type stuff here, because, quite frankly, others do it more and better than I could. For a great example, see ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thamiris who has a wittier, bawdier, and more scholarly view than I do.
However, something is intriguing me, and I have to ask the question. What happens when you enjoy the fanfic, but disagree with the characterizations?
I've recently gotten into a new fandom. I saw a few mid to late series episodes, got hooked, and bought the DVDs for the first two seasons. In the meantime, while waiting for the early stuff to come my way, I found my way into the fandom and started reading the slash.
So far, so good. Actually, so far, so wonderful. There are some terrific writers telling excellent stories out there. Lots of humor. Lots of angst. Stories that made me laugh and cry in the space of a few little pages. Long stories that left me begging for more, with hot sex, beautiful men, and reasonably researched adventures.
The "but" comes now. BUT, in watching the early seasons, I've come to the conclusion that, as lovely as this fanfic is, these writers aren't seeing the men that I'm seeing. They're missing the strengths -- including a streak of ruthlessness -- of the partner who's usually mildly feminized even when they're making him forceful. Worse, they're ignoring some of the genuine nastiness that the usually butch, for lack of a better word, partner has in him. Most of all, they're missing -- belittling? -- the fact that the extreme chemistry that I see between those two is the deepest friendship I've ever been privileged to witness in television. (In reading that sentence over, it seems like hyperbole, but I think I'm right.)
Most writers have at least a sentence, some have pages, dealing with the heterosexuality of the characters and how this relationship made them realize the possibilities out there. One of the funnier tropes of this fandom is that they often use the Kinsey scale either in the conversation or in the characters thoughts -- how can butch tell feminized that he's really a two when it's so obvious that feminized is a zero (or vice versa).
On some level though, I just don't believe it. I can see them crying on each other's shoulders. I can see them staying at each others apartments when one or the other has had too much to drink or just needs a friend. I can see them doing the social deference thing that two people with different interests will do in order to keep a friendship together. (From my own life, I have a friend who loves to shop. I consider shopping to be more painful than root canal. When we get together for a weekend, I get to pick the movies we go to, and she gets to take me shopping for no more than six hours. It works for us.) They're close. I have no doubt that they love each other. They're friends.
What does it say about us as fen that we can't accept the wonderful complexities of a deep friendship? Why do we want to sexualize something that is as rare as a good marriage? Sex isn't the be all and end all of chemistry, is it?
As to the characters themselves, they're both men who've lost their wives. And I agree with the fanfic leitmotif that neither of them really does "casual" sex at this point in their lives. Relationships are difficult for them. They have jobs that keep them from normal patterns, and these jobs have a level of secrecy that makes it difficult for them to date outside their work environment. However, the complex they work in, while mostly male, has women serving. The dating pool may be limited, but it's there.
Quite frankly, I can see both or either of them living by the words of advice a friend of mine gave her son, "If you get bored with your right hand, try the left. It could be the start of a whole new relationship." Adults may need and want sex, but we're perfectly capable of being celibate for years if we lack suitable partners. I know that it's the reason my wrists are strong.
On the broader spectrum: I've written about equal amounts of het and slash. For the Buffyverse slash, I can see Giles or Wesley as bisexual because my own experiences in Britain in the 1980s give me a handle on it. The vampires, well, after a hundred years or so, you're bound to try everything at least once. In the Smallvilleverse, I've only written one two het pieces because on that show it seems the only thing that's straight is the driveway of the Kent's farm. Slash is supported by the actors' portrayals (Whether wittingly or no, is up to the individual viewer, but I defy anyone to watch Shimmer and not see at least a strong mutual boy-crush between Clark and Lex.), the direction, and, occasionally, the writing.
When I wrote my first Smallville piece, it was because I couldn't see those two characters getting together the way most people did. Had a particular walk-on character not been snotty to them, the evening would have ended with a mocking goodnight kiss and remained a standalone, firmly PG story. When I wrote in the Buffyverse, it was because I heard the characters in my head, and they weren't getting any.
This new fandom though, I don't hear the characters begging to be put together in a big bed. I can't imagine a situation where they would get that kind of physical with each other. They're so comfortable touching in their friendship that I can't see it as sublimation.
Even the standard undercover situation, where they'd have to pretend to be gay and discover -- whoo boy -- they really like each other, doesn't ring true for me. I could see them playing it to the hilt to mess with people, but I can't see them swooning after a kiss and fading to the smiles on their faces when they wake up the next morning.
The issue here is that I read the stories first. I loved the stories. These guys -- actors and characters -- are scorching, and each of the characters appeals to a different part of my libido. But I can no longer see the characters in the stories as the characters I've seen on screen.
The fact that without the character identification I feel like I'm losing something, opens up a whole can of worms about the legitimacy of fanfiction. I'm willing to argue that something well-written has intrinsic worth without linkage to a particular universe. On the other hand, if the salt has lost its savor, the worth is far less than I'd hoped.
Ultimately, the question is do I continue to read these stories and just figure that they have common names and a profession that I can see on the TV screen? Or do I stop reading because, from my knowledge of the characters, these writers are missing some key points? Both of these are complicated by the fact that I'm now on mailing lists for this fandom, and I like the people there very much indeed. If I'm not reading, what do I have to contribute to the discussion? If I am, how do I broach these points, or how do I keep my mouth shut?
Over the weekend my mother had a small stroke. The MRI should be today so that we'll know how much damage may have been done and whether it looks like the beginning of a cluster.
Those of you who know me, know that my mother and I have a deeply complicated and often hurtful (usually to me) relationship. She abused me emotionally, mentally, and occasionally physically for most of my life. Around my 35th birthday we had a disagreement in an office where we both worked, and she slapped me. Less than an hour later, I was told that I deserved being crowded out of a particular project because I was "A fat, middle-aged failure."
But, I don't want her to die. She's my mother. I love her. She gave me some wonderful times and privileges that I know few children have had. My reading was never censored. If I wanted to go to a play and the rest of the family wasn't interested, they'd take me and pick me up from a matinee. I started going to the theater on my own -- sometimes SRO -- at 11, something that I couldn't have done if she hadn't been willing to go out of her way for me.
I keep feeling like her out of character behavior with me on the telephone last week should have told me that something was wrong -- that I missed something or dropped the ball.
I'm lucky that I have good friends who've gone out of their way to listen to me.
I'm sorry that this seems so "bitty." This is very difficult for me to think about, much less write about.
Just to let everyone know. There are paragraphs here, but for some reason LiveJournal isn't formatting them into the entry. Help!
thamiris who has a wittier, bawdier, and more scholarly view than I do.However, something is intriguing me, and I have to ask the question. What happens when you enjoy the fanfic, but disagree with the characterizations?
I've recently gotten into a new fandom. I saw a few mid to late series episodes, got hooked, and bought the DVDs for the first two seasons. In the meantime, while waiting for the early stuff to come my way, I found my way into the fandom and started reading the slash.
So far, so good. Actually, so far, so wonderful. There are some terrific writers telling excellent stories out there. Lots of humor. Lots of angst. Stories that made me laugh and cry in the space of a few little pages. Long stories that left me begging for more, with hot sex, beautiful men, and reasonably researched adventures.
The "but" comes now. BUT, in watching the early seasons, I've come to the conclusion that, as lovely as this fanfic is, these writers aren't seeing the men that I'm seeing. They're missing the strengths -- including a streak of ruthlessness -- of the partner who's usually mildly feminized even when they're making him forceful. Worse, they're ignoring some of the genuine nastiness that the usually butch, for lack of a better word, partner has in him. Most of all, they're missing -- belittling? -- the fact that the extreme chemistry that I see between those two is the deepest friendship I've ever been privileged to witness in television. (In reading that sentence over, it seems like hyperbole, but I think I'm right.)
Most writers have at least a sentence, some have pages, dealing with the heterosexuality of the characters and how this relationship made them realize the possibilities out there. One of the funnier tropes of this fandom is that they often use the Kinsey scale either in the conversation or in the characters thoughts -- how can butch tell feminized that he's really a two when it's so obvious that feminized is a zero (or vice versa).
On some level though, I just don't believe it. I can see them crying on each other's shoulders. I can see them staying at each others apartments when one or the other has had too much to drink or just needs a friend. I can see them doing the social deference thing that two people with different interests will do in order to keep a friendship together. (From my own life, I have a friend who loves to shop. I consider shopping to be more painful than root canal. When we get together for a weekend, I get to pick the movies we go to, and she gets to take me shopping for no more than six hours. It works for us.) They're close. I have no doubt that they love each other. They're friends.
What does it say about us as fen that we can't accept the wonderful complexities of a deep friendship? Why do we want to sexualize something that is as rare as a good marriage? Sex isn't the be all and end all of chemistry, is it?
As to the characters themselves, they're both men who've lost their wives. And I agree with the fanfic leitmotif that neither of them really does "casual" sex at this point in their lives. Relationships are difficult for them. They have jobs that keep them from normal patterns, and these jobs have a level of secrecy that makes it difficult for them to date outside their work environment. However, the complex they work in, while mostly male, has women serving. The dating pool may be limited, but it's there.
Quite frankly, I can see both or either of them living by the words of advice a friend of mine gave her son, "If you get bored with your right hand, try the left. It could be the start of a whole new relationship." Adults may need and want sex, but we're perfectly capable of being celibate for years if we lack suitable partners. I know that it's the reason my wrists are strong.
On the broader spectrum: I've written about equal amounts of het and slash. For the Buffyverse slash, I can see Giles or Wesley as bisexual because my own experiences in Britain in the 1980s give me a handle on it. The vampires, well, after a hundred years or so, you're bound to try everything at least once. In the Smallvilleverse, I've only written one two het pieces because on that show it seems the only thing that's straight is the driveway of the Kent's farm. Slash is supported by the actors' portrayals (Whether wittingly or no, is up to the individual viewer, but I defy anyone to watch Shimmer and not see at least a strong mutual boy-crush between Clark and Lex.), the direction, and, occasionally, the writing.
When I wrote my first Smallville piece, it was because I couldn't see those two characters getting together the way most people did. Had a particular walk-on character not been snotty to them, the evening would have ended with a mocking goodnight kiss and remained a standalone, firmly PG story. When I wrote in the Buffyverse, it was because I heard the characters in my head, and they weren't getting any.
This new fandom though, I don't hear the characters begging to be put together in a big bed. I can't imagine a situation where they would get that kind of physical with each other. They're so comfortable touching in their friendship that I can't see it as sublimation.
Even the standard undercover situation, where they'd have to pretend to be gay and discover -- whoo boy -- they really like each other, doesn't ring true for me. I could see them playing it to the hilt to mess with people, but I can't see them swooning after a kiss and fading to the smiles on their faces when they wake up the next morning.
The issue here is that I read the stories first. I loved the stories. These guys -- actors and characters -- are scorching, and each of the characters appeals to a different part of my libido. But I can no longer see the characters in the stories as the characters I've seen on screen.
The fact that without the character identification I feel like I'm losing something, opens up a whole can of worms about the legitimacy of fanfiction. I'm willing to argue that something well-written has intrinsic worth without linkage to a particular universe. On the other hand, if the salt has lost its savor, the worth is far less than I'd hoped.
Ultimately, the question is do I continue to read these stories and just figure that they have common names and a profession that I can see on the TV screen? Or do I stop reading because, from my knowledge of the characters, these writers are missing some key points? Both of these are complicated by the fact that I'm now on mailing lists for this fandom, and I like the people there very much indeed. If I'm not reading, what do I have to contribute to the discussion? If I am, how do I broach these points, or how do I keep my mouth shut?
Over the weekend my mother had a small stroke. The MRI should be today so that we'll know how much damage may have been done and whether it looks like the beginning of a cluster.
Those of you who know me, know that my mother and I have a deeply complicated and often hurtful (usually to me) relationship. She abused me emotionally, mentally, and occasionally physically for most of my life. Around my 35th birthday we had a disagreement in an office where we both worked, and she slapped me. Less than an hour later, I was told that I deserved being crowded out of a particular project because I was "A fat, middle-aged failure."
But, I don't want her to die. She's my mother. I love her. She gave me some wonderful times and privileges that I know few children have had. My reading was never censored. If I wanted to go to a play and the rest of the family wasn't interested, they'd take me and pick me up from a matinee. I started going to the theater on my own -- sometimes SRO -- at 11, something that I couldn't have done if she hadn't been willing to go out of her way for me.
I keep feeling like her out of character behavior with me on the telephone last week should have told me that something was wrong -- that I missed something or dropped the ball.
I'm lucky that I have good friends who've gone out of their way to listen to me.
I'm sorry that this seems so "bitty." This is very difficult for me to think about, much less write about.
Just to let everyone know. There are paragraphs here, but for some reason LiveJournal isn't formatting them into the entry. Help!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 10:57 am (UTC)Over the weekend my mother had a small stroke. The MRI should be today so that we'll know how much damage may have been done and whether it looks like the beginning of a cluster
I'm very sorry and I hope everything turns out all right.
I too have a strained relationship with my mother. I love her, but she is a different woman then me in many ways. My only consolation (such that it is) is the knowledge that my mother is unhappy and has almost always been unhappy. Most of her nastiness to me was about her unhappiness, not about me. Obviously this is something that you have probably realized, but it can't hurt to be reminded of it.
You know, one of my classes at NYU is Oral Traditions. So for my project, I've been thinking about my family and the stories I heard growing up. Specifically, I have been thinking about how my father and his family were story tellers and how my mother and her family were not. And it occurred to me, that I might have stumbled on to one of the main reasons that my father and I are so much closer than my mother and I.
I grew up hearing all these stories about my father (from many different people). I think it humanized him for me--made him easier to understand, accept, and forgive. And because of the lack of stories by and about my mother, she and I never developed the empathy for her that I did for my father. It's not that my father is so much better of a person than my mother--it's that I know him better. I see him more clearly.
And so it occurs to me that it's not too late to learn my mother's stories and perhaps be closer to her. Maybe that is something that you could try as well.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 11:26 am (UTC)I sincerely hope that the issues with your mother can be worked out and that she recovers from the stroke quickly.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 11:44 am (UTC)It's interesting. I know my mother's side of the family better for the most part, but they also didn't tell stories. My father's side of the family, including my father, did. So, even though I rarely saw my paternal grandfather, I feel that in some ways I know him better.
I wonder if on some level the inability to communicate the past, to shape it into a story, kept my mother (and yours) from finding a way to be happy. It's an interesting idea, and thank you so much for sharing it with me.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 11:47 am (UTC)And I will probably continue reading it. I doubt I'll write any in this 'verse. I don't think I can do a very complex set of characters justice.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 12:04 pm (UTC)Thanks, sweetie. The thing is her odd behavior wasn't going off on a non sequitur and yelling at me, it was that she apologized to me for it.
Feel better soon. And then kick my ass about the fanfic stuff, 'k?
Re:
Date: 2003-04-01 12:14 pm (UTC)Write!
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 12:20 pm (UTC)Is there a new one of yours for us to read?
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 12:21 pm (UTC)No problem. Let's hope my professor likes the idea too.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 12:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 12:28 pm (UTC)I was going to make some comments on the fanfiction issue, but the comments started to sprawl. So I will think about it a bit more, and if I come up w/ anything that still looks meaningful an hour later, I'll email it to you.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 02:33 pm (UTC)Are you sure it's straight? I was under the impression it curved.;)
My guilty pleasure if fanfic with characterization I disagree with--if the story itself is good. I'm reading a lot of it now in the Sentinel fanfic I'm going through. A lot of times I have to shake my head because it doesn't jive with what I see on the screen, but I'm intrigued enough by the fic itself to continue reading. So, as long as the fic doesn't take away your enjoyment of the show,keep reading.
I'm sorry about your mother. I know how hard times like these can be.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 05:46 pm (UTC)Hugs.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 08:15 pm (UTC)I'm sick. Pukey, nauseous, blech.
I am still thinking of you and your mother. *hugs*
no subject
Date: 2003-04-07 07:09 am (UTC)I was wondering if you minded if I quoted you in my presentation for my Oral Traditions class. I've been thinking about this comment of yours (I wonder if on some level the inability to communicate the past, to shape it into a story, kept my mother (and yours) from finding a way to be happy. It's an interesting idea, and thank you so much for sharing it with me.) and I like it so much I want to use it.
Obviously, I wouldn't mention any details of who you were or our relationship or anything. It would just be a generalized comment "A friend of my summed it up saying..."
no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 12:37 pm (UTC)This section:
They're missing the strengths -- including a streak of ruthlessness -- of the partner who's usually mildly feminized even when they're making him forceful. Worse, they're ignoring some of the genuine nastiness that the usually butch, for lack of a better word, partner has in him.
- is a very good description of what I usually see happening (or, more precisely, not happening) in SG fan fiction.
What does it say about us as fen that we can't accept the wonderful complexities of a deep friendship? Why do we want to sexualize something that is as rare as a good marriage? Sex isn't the be all and end all of chemistry, is it?
It took me about three years to get into Stargate, and another year to be able to see anything at all in the relationship between Jack and Daniel that could point to slash. Now, of course, I see subtext everywhere. But your question is interesting to me, because it's a difficult problem in SG fandom. The friendships among these teammates is satisfying in and of itself, so it does take an extra leap of...imagination? willingness?...to find ways to believe the subtext.
Ultimately, the question is do I continue to read these stories and just figure that they have common names and a profession that I can see on the TV screen? Or do I stop reading because, from my knowledge of the characters, these writers are missing some key points?
There are a few fabulous writers who get it, and who write deeply satisfying fiction in the fandom that incorporates the characteristics you see on-screen. It's just a bit more difficult to find their work in a sea of stories that don't land anywhere near the mark. I empathize. *g* Hopefully, though, since this was a few months back, you've continued reading. The good stories, and the writers who do get it, really are out there. There are also a few lovely, subtle pre-slash stories, and they are nicely satisfying for readers who really can't quite get behind the 'falling into bed' thing.